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S. Michael Houdmann
Supporter
The Bible teaches that everyone who is born again by the power of the Holy Spirit is saved forever. We receive the gift of eternal life (John 10:28), not temporary life. Someone who is born again (...
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S. Michael Houdmann
Supporter
Perseverance of the saints is the name that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the eternal security of the believer. It answers the question, "Once a person is saved, can he lose his...
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Jennifer Rothnie
Supporter
Eternal Security is the theory that once you believe, God will keep you secure forever. Due to this, a believer must "persevere" in faith and can never subsequently reject Christ - hence "Perseverance of the Saints". There are many scriptures that explicitly contradict, and others that cause difficulty, for this view. Believers can return to the world, fail to endure, etc. II Pet 2:20-22: These people had personal relationship with Christ (epignosis). They had escaped the world (apopheugó) - a feat only Christ's deliverance can achieve. Then, they went back again and were once more entangled with the world and overcome (héttaomai). Luke 8:13, Matt 13:20-21: These received (welcomed) the word with joy like the believers of 1 Thess 2:13. They had no root, so could not endure through trials, and died like the foolish man of Luke 6:46-49. Lk 8:14, Matt 13:22: These heard the word (Rom 10:14-17, Matt 11:15,) but what they heard in the beginning did not remain in them (I John 2:24). They were 'choked/cut off because joined with' the world (sumpnigó). Unproductive faith that returns to the world is talked about it James 1:19-27, John 15:1-4, II Pet 1:3-11, Luke 9:62, etc. Luke 12:42-46: The servant of Christ who does not wait for His coming will be 'assigned a place with the unbelievers'. This is like the foolish virgins (Matt 25:1-13). 1 Tim 1:18-20: Timothy is exhorted to hold fast (echó) to faith, the same faith others have 'thrust away from themselves' (apótheó) and suffered shipwreck (nauageó - to break, to come to ruin, to suffer shipwreck (II Cor 11:25 - Paul was in the actual ship before it broke, it was not an illusion)) concerning their faith. Rom 11:17-24: Another branch and vine analogy, ref. Is 18:1-7. The Israelites did not remain, and were broken off. The Gentile believers were grafted in - but Rom 11:20-22 makes it quite clear we should not be smug in this newfound position, for God will not spare us if we do not continue with Him! And others: John 15:1-8, 1 Tim 4:1-15, II Tim 2:12, Heb 3:12-19, Heb 6:4-6, Heb 10:23-39, James 1:2-12, James 1: 22-25, James 5:19-20, II Pet 1:8-11, I Peter 5:8, Matt 10:22, Matt 18:21-35, Matt 24:13, Gal 5:2-12, I John 2:24, Rom 11:17-24, Rev 2:5-11, Rev 3:5, Rev 3:11, Rev 22:19, etc.) From God's perspective, one could say there is 'preservation of the saints that persevere', and not run into any scriptural contradictions. (1 John 5:1-5) Furthermore, the seal of the holy spirit is God's guarantee to all believers (those that persevere and those that do not) of the promised inheritance of eternal life, so long as they abide in Christ. (Eph 4:30, John 15:1-16, Jude 1:21) Nothing can forcibly separate us from the love of God! (Rom 8:31-39). The misunderstanding comes in when God's perspective is mixed up with man's actions inside of time. Many verses that only apply to the final verdict of salvation, or that apply to God knowing before time who is His, are often assumed to apply to the moment of us believing Christ as Messiah and professing Him as Lord. For example, in John 10:27-30 talks about how he gives eternal life to his sheep and they will 'never perish'. This occurs at the judgement, when we receive our glorified bodies. (Rom 8:22-25, I Cor 15:50-54, Jude 1:21) We receive the promise of this hope when we come to faith. (Heb 10:23) The seal of the holy spirit is the 'arrabon' - the engagement ring or down payment which God gives us as a promise He will fulfill all terms and obligations. This does not prevent us from exiting the contract. John 2:23-24 and II Tim 2:8-13 sum up this difference of perspective. We may believe on Christ, but Christ knows our hearts and our futures, and whether or not our faith is one that will prove true until the end. It's a complex topic, but scripture is harmonious & does not contradict. Where there is confusion, it is due to misunderstandings of man and the limits of our perspective - not inaccuracy of scripture.
S. Michael Houdmann
Supporter
When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their eternal security. Jude 24 declares, "To Him who is able to keep you from falling...
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Tony Clinton
Supporter
Eternal Security Refutation Our salvation is only secure if we obey Christ and abide in Him. Can an unbeliever whether fake professor of Christ be a part of the True Vine (Jesus)? It's like saying branches in a tree are not part of the tree they are alien attachments to the tree. When Jesus spoke to the apostles in (John 15) He gave the clearest possible explanation that remaining in Christ was essential for them, not to be branches drying up and broken off from Him, The True Vine. So even the apostles had a responsibility to continue in Christ or lose it all. So then to imagine that Christians who are described as being branches in Christ and Olive branches in (Romans 11) were never really a part of the tree but they were pretenders, is not true. Even a fake Christian is never part of the True Vine; they are better described as tares as opposed to wheat. The consequences of a Christian that stops abiding in Christ are everywhere, written in the Scriptures. This is the nature of apostasy! When a true believer stops abiding in Christ they will certainly dry up. They are a part in Christ until such a point that they never come back and The "Father takes them away" they are cast forth as a branch broken off. They were once not fake believers, but genuine Christians that abandoned Christ. (Romans11:20-22) completely demolishes the doctrine of eternal unconditional security in one sharp swish of the Holy Sword. Roman Christian saints who are standing by faith are warned to fear, because they would be cut off from God if they did not continue in the Grace of God. That's the same truth confirmed by (John 15) Remaining in Christ was conditional upon Christians continuing to abide in Him. Our salvation is not eternally secure if we neglect it or abandon it by not continuing in Christ. (1John 2:24) it's conditional upon continuing in the faith. (Hebrews 10) speaks of Genuine Christians under the New Covenant grace who suffered for their faith, that if they throw away their hope and draw back to perdition they will never return to what they once were so blessed with. (Hebrews 6:1-9) Describes Christians who abandoned the faith. How can we be certain of this message being related to genuine Christians? Heb 6:9.But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. He is here telling the ones that had not abandoned the faith that he expected that they would not also follow the same path as the apostates. Heb 3:12.Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Heb 3:13.But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. Heb 3:14.For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; Look now at this Scripture, he warns them not to depart from the living God. If an airplane is not at LA international airport and an official got on the microphone and said " Attention flight 109c you cannot depart from this airport till your faults are fixed." Another officer comes over and says "That plane is not at our airport." You cannot depart from God if you were never with God. Why would you warn the Christians not to depart from God if they were never with Him. The deceitfulness of sin can lure genuine Christians away from the the Living God and this is apostasy. One might believe today and then in the future abandon their faith, and lose all that they once had.
Ema Sabau
Supporter
The definition of apostasy is; "a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc." It is interesting that someone asked this question. Apostasy is not word in the Bible. Only the action of apostasy is mentioned in the Bible. The apostasy is more then falling in our walk with Christ. Falling is an accident but apostasy is an act well thought about. Is a premeditate action. Apostasy is a result of education about not believing the Truth of God, believing satan's lies of the end of the time. That is why I insist as much I can when and where I can about the importance of KNOWING God's Word as well is possible. Only those unstable on God's Word can be deceived in this days by all kind of teaching and teachers. For example long time ago when satan sinned against God he didn't fall in sin, he premeditated long before his auction took place. That is an example of apostasy. Is it possible someone to "desert" from a position which never has? No. Is it possible to abandon something you never possess? No. And the list can continue. First you have to have a faith, in our case, genuine faith,in order to abandon,to dessert or to deny that faith. An unbeliever or never born again person can not do this things. We are living in days when Jesus is heavily denied by many " christians" in their daily life. Unfortunately good christians can be trapped in this but the difference is that the one born again DOESNT like that and repent about, when non born again consider that as "normal" life. “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. (John 15:1 NKJV) Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. (John 15:2 NKJV) You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. (John 15:3, 4 NKJV If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. (John 15:6 NKJV). Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; (Hebrews 3:12 NKJV) All this words are address to believers,to branches in truth Vine which is Jesus. Do not deceive your self. Read and believe Jesus not others who try to tell you something also then Jesus said. As you can see there is very clear warning for the BELIEVERS not for unbelievers. I have heard all kind of interpretation on this passage of the Bible by those who believe in eternal salvation. There is no any guaranty in the Bible for believers about this. I think there are a lot more warnings then assurance.
James Bellamy
Supporter
The Hebrews 10 passage speaks of someone who sat in meetings, experienced the worship and the fellowship, tried is out for a little, but was never truly born again. It is not talking about someone who is genuinely saved. The parable of the sower is also not speaking to a person that is authentically saved. The bible actually clearly states the opposite of the "faithfulness on the believer's part". Romans 8: "No, in all these things we are more than victorious through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that not even death or life, angels or rulers, things present or things to come, hostile powers, height or depth, or any other created thing will have the power to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord!" Romans 8: 16-18 "It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." Ephesians 1:13 and 14 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory." We did not do anything to earn our salvation. How can you and I lose what we could never attain on our own? After salvation, its only then by the Holy Spirit that we remain in Christ. So Christ's blood is enough to save, but not enough to seal till the end? By no means. Those are just a few verses of many that show that even though we must respond by repenting and believing, it is only by God's Holy Spirit that we remained saved. If we don't remain until the end, then we were simply never redeemed to begin with.
Anthony Clinton
Supporter
Our salvation is only secure if we obey Christ and abide in Him. Can an unbeliever whether fake professor of Christ be a part of the True Vine (Jesus)? It's like saying branches in a tree are not part of the tree they are alien attachments to the tree. When Jesus spoke to the apostles in (John 15) He gave the clearest possible explanation that remaining in Christ was essential for them, not to be branches drying up and broken off from Him, The True Vine. So even the apostles had a responsibility to continue in Christ or lose it all. So then to imagine that Christians who are described as being branches in Christ and Olive branches in (Romans 11) were never really a part of the tree but they were pretenders, is not true. Even a fake Christian is never part of the True Vine; they are better described as tares as opposed to wheat. The consequences of a Christian that stops abiding in Christ are everywhere, written in the Scriptures. This is the nature of apostasy! When a true believer stops abiding in Christ they will certainly dry up. They are a part in Christ until such a point that they never come back and The "Father takes them away" they are cast forth as a branch broken off. They were once not fake believers, but genuine Christians that abandoned Christ. (Romans11:20-22) completely demolishes the doctrine of eternal unconditional security in one sharp swish of the Holy Sword. Roman Christian saints who are standing by faith are warned to fear, because they would be cut off from God if they did not continue in the Grace of God. That's the same truth confirmed by (John 15) Remaining in Christ was conditional upon Christians continuing to abide in Him. Our salvation is not eternally secure if we neglect it or abandon it by not continuing in Christ. (1John 2:24) it's conditional upon continuing in the faith. (Hebrews 10) speaks of Genuine Christians under the New Covenant grace who suffered for their faith, that if they throw away their hope and draw back to perdition they will never return to what they once were so blessed with. (Hebrews 6:1-9) Describes Christians who abandoned the faith. How can we be certain of this message being related to genuine Christians? Heb 6:9.But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. He is here telling the ones that had not abandoned the faith that he expected that they would not also follow the same path as the apostates. Heb 3:12.Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Heb 3:13.But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. Heb 3:14.For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; Look now at this Scripture, he warns them not to depart from the living God. If an airplane is not at LA international airport and an official got on the microphone and said " Attention flight 109c you cannot depart from this airport till your faults are fixed." Another officer comes over and says "That plane is not at our airport." You cannot depart from God if you were never with God. Why would you warn the Christians not to depart from God if they were never with Him. The deceitfulness of sin can lure genuine Christians away from the the Living God and this is apostasy. One might believe today and then in the future abandon their faith, and lose all that they once had.
Melissa Gonzales
Supporter
In Hebrews 10 it talks about how the person that keep on sinning is rejecting the spirit and this is what causes them to be thrown into the fire. In Hebrew 6:4-6 it says 'For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt'. And also in Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus tells them "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.' These scriptures particularly talk about people that have received the Holy Spirit and KNOW the truth, yet still choose to reject God after knowing him, which causes them to reject the salvation they once received. This is not because God takes it away, but because we ourselves walk away. I agree that we did not do any works to receive salvation and that it is not our works that save us. But the bible says in James 2:14 that faith without works is dead. It is by our actions through faith that help us preserver. And also just like the word says, God will never leave us nor forsake us; it is us that leaves him. It is up to us to continue in the faith. We must finish our race, not stop half way through it. But who are we to say who can or will make it to heaven? All that should matter to us is that we do what God has called everyone one of us to do, which is to make disciples. My purpose is to not get you to believe what I believe the scriptures mean, but it is to show you scripture through the holy spirit because he is the only one who gives us understanding. This is why it's so important to be in tune with the spirit and to examine ourselves daily to make sure we find Christ in us. (Gal 6:4)
Earl Decker
Supporter
I think the best way to answer eternal security is that you are secure in Christ Jesus. If you had to depend on yourself for your eternal security then you would not be secure.
James Kraft
Supporter
I do not believe in the perserverance of the saints. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. I do believe even when we fall into sin we know that we have greived the spirit that lives in us. When we are unfaithful, He is still faithful and just to forgive us our sins. If you belong to Jesus you can run but you can't hide. He chastens those He loves. Apostates were never believers in the first place, believing that they are saved by their own righteousness and not trusting in Jesus righteousness alone by faith. The sin of the Pharasees was they believed they could save themselves by their own goodness. Unbelievers.
Anonymous
The problem with the so called church of today is that they get their theology, not from the Bible or being taught by the Holy Spirit, but by men's opinions and books of systematic theology slanted to the doctrines of the particular denomination they represent. Acts 5:32 says that God gives the Holy Ghost to those that are obeying him. Obey in the Greek is in the present tense in this verse, signifying that we must keep on obeying God if we are to keep on having the Holy Spirit. Therefore, not to keep on obeying God, is not to keep on having the Holy Spirit. Jesus asserts in John 14:23, that if we keep his words, he will come and make His abode with us. Therefore, not to keep His words, is not to have Jesus and not to have Jesus, is not to have eternal life! 1 John 3:24 says, that in order to remain or continue in Christ, after He has made His abode in us, we must keep His commandments! In John 15:6 Jesus said, that if a man doesn't remain or continue in Him, that is by keeping His commandments, he would be cast into the fire and burned. II John 9 says, that whoever transgresses and doesn't remain or continue in the teaching of Christ, HAS NOT GOD!
Aurel Gheorghe
Supporter
The "once saved, always saved" doctrine, although very popular, is not Biblical. It give believers the false assurance that no matter what we do and how badly we might behave, we are saved and God is not going to let us go no matter what. If that would be true, our free-will is then taken away, we lose our power to chose and God turn us into Heaven's hostages. There are several examples in the Bible of people who had a saved relationship with God, and choose to turn away from Him. King Saul, for example, was chosen by the Lord, anointed, filled with the Spirit, but because of his pride and disobedience, he lost his salvation and took his own life (1 Samuel 31). Prophet Balaam also became a wicked person in God's eyes after conspiring against Israel (Numbers 31:16). It's hard to argue that these people did not have a true relationship with God and were not saved; rather they lost their salvation as a result of their actions. Ezekiel 18:24, makes it very clear, that a a person who was righteous can turn away from God and be lost. In Hebrews 10:23, Paul tells: "Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering." Once a person is saved and cannot lose their salvation, why would they not waver and need to hold fast? God does not take away our freedom once we accept Him. Paul compares our live journey with a race in which at any moment we can disqualify ourselves (1 Corinthians 9:24-27). Having said that, the Bible is also very clear that we can have an assurance of our relationship with Him and don't have to live in constant fear (Philippians 1:6) (1 John 4:18). As long as we, every day, are placing our lives in His hand, we don’t have to fear or doubt our salvation.
Billy P Eldred
Supporter
My position on this issue has always been that whether "once saved always saved" is sound Biblical doctrine or not, it should never be taught. Proponents of this doctrine when asked "what about those who fall away?" simply reply that they were never saved to begin with. Whether they were or were not does not matter as the result is the same, a lost soul! Why teach them a doctrine that they can interpret as because I accepted Jesus as my Savior (in their minds by repeating a prayer), I am saved no matter what I do from here. Many of these you won't get a chance to retrain their thinking because they won't be in church to hear you. I know people who say they are saved because "they were baptized as a child" and are living for the devil today without knowing Jesus at all. I am afraid that those who teach this doctrine are guilty of what Jesus was referring to when he said (Luke 17:2) It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. Salvation is not something we own but a promise from God. We are not supposed to boast about it rather honor God because He has made the Way and Jesus who is the Way because he has paid the price. It is true we don't have to worry about losing our Salvation because God is faithful to keep his promises. But when will we be saved? Now? When we die? During the Tribulation? At judgement we will be saved forever. In the mean time let's try to honor God by helping as many others receive that promise as possible. The first step for anyone to be saved is to recognize that they need saving. Don't keep them from that knowledge by a false hope that they may or may not qualify for.
Earl Decker
Supporter
While it is a growing process... salvation is set and God is faithful. Now, salvation is NOT a acknowledgement that Jesus is Lord and then living like hell. For demons believe Jesus is Lord and hate Him and His servants and fight against Jesus.
Chris Bray
Supporter
I'm not sure what the scripture you're referencing has to do with the question you ask. The scripture reference is Mat 11:4 And Jesus answered them, "Go and tell John what you hear and see:Mat 11:5 the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them.Mat 11:6 And blessed is the one who is not offended by me." This passage is actually a quote Jesus is making from Isaiah 35:5. It is about the coming salvation through Jesus Christ, but is not really related to the question you're asking on eternal security. All Christians believe God has the only power to save. I think the question you're trying to ask is why don't all Christians believe in unconditional eternal security, better known as the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine versus conditional eternal security. The answer to that question is fairly easy. First, the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine did not exist prior to 150 or so years ago. Even Calvinists teach that all Christians must persevere in their faith until the end. The Once Saved Always Saved doctrine has historical roots just like many doctrines and it's relatively new speaking by church history terms. Second, if you read all of the "if" statements riddled throughout the NT, it's really impossible to substantiate unconditional eternal security if you use good exegesis and understand the grammatical forms of the verbs used in the Greek. Exegesis is studying the text in context of the passage it appears as well as the book. And letting the text speak for itself. Eisegesis, on the other hand, is reading the text through a biased, non-objective lense that usually means a doctrine one wishes to support with scriptures. I've answered the question and will reserve further comment on your answer to your own question and your critique of Jim Gordon for the comments section which is what you're supposed to do according to the e-bible guidelines...
Frederick Thomas
Supporter
Salvation Secured There are two positions in which true Christians can be found. The first true believer pre-meditates apostasy. If he dies he will stand guilty on judgment day. 1 Ti 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons. “Paying attention" to what? Another translation says “giving heed to” To lose or to depart or to fall away from the faith must be in exchange for another option. I have faith in God that there is no one can be compared to Him. He is Almighty all Powerful. To opt for something in exchange, I must reason with myself maybe God is not as powerful as I think, maybe if enough of us stand together we can overthrow God and take the lead. Rev 20:7-8 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. This is what Satan is telling true believers, Evolutionists, Atheists, Skeptics and Agnostics. These true believers willfully go against the strong evidence and convictions of the true God Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God. Satan was so close to God and saw God’s Power, yet with all this evidence he decided to disobey and take a change to go against God. Isa 14:13-14 "But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' The second true believer is overtaken in fault. If he dies he will still be saved. Gal 6:1-3 Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. Paul wrote to the Corinthians 1 Co 11:28-32 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. But if we JUDGED ourselves rightly, we would not be JUDGED. but when we are JUDGED, we are disciplined (verse 30, weakness, sickness and death) by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world. God is dealing with us as with His own children. He loves us too dearly to allow us to go on in sin. Thus we soon feel the shepherd's crook on our necks pulling us back to Himself. As someone has said, “It is possible for the saints to be fit for heaven (in Christ) but not fitted to remain on the earth in testimony.” I conclude that true believers can apostate with the intention of working against God siding with the Evolutionist, Atheist, Skeptics and Agnostics.
Glenn Harrell
Supporter
The Saint is both saved by and kept by a power not of his own. The Saint is never told that he must preserve himself, for to do so would be both unkind and unlike the God who protects and preserves his own. "You have faith in God. It is his power that will protect you until the last day. Then he will save you, just as he has always planned to do." (I Peter 1:5) The Saint (noun) did not become a Saint because of his own power, strength to endure or promises of holy behavior. If he did, I would certainly believe in the perseverance of the Saint. And Jesus Christ becomes of non-necessity. Quite the contrary, the Saint shall remain sinful until his last breath on this earth. The Saint must experience sin in order to learn about Christ-likeness, discipline, family and belonging. Such a sinful Saint shall never be a Sinner again. He may sin less but he will never become sinless apart from the status attributed to him through the atonement of Christ on the cross. The Saint learns about his being freed from the obligation to sin. The Saint learns about a Fathers loving correction. "Don't all parents correct their children? God corrects all of his children, and if he doesn't correct you, then you don't really belong to him." (Hebrews 12:8) If by "Perseverance of the Saints" we mean PEOPLE SAVED AND KEPT BY GODS UNLIMITED POWER, then I am on board. But if this little phrase implies in any form or fashion that any man may save or keep himself by moral behaviors and human fleshly endeavors, and good works, I must heartily deny such as entirely un-biblical. The Saint is Saved by God's preservation power The Saint is being kept by God's preservation power The Saint will be saved by God's preservation power Every person who believes that a man can muster up a perseverance and sinless state for any length of time deemed acceptable to God will be: 1-Unwilling to become a Saint under Gods terms. "But God showed how much he loved us by having Christ die for us, even though we were sinful." (Romans 5:8) 2-Hiding in secrecy and covering his sins as though God and his fellow man doesn't know. The Sinner need but confess his total inability and place trust and faith in a God who says of his character and self, "The Lord isn't slow about keeping his promises, as some people think he is. In fact, God is patient, because he wants everyone to turn from sin and no one to be lost." (II Peter 3:9) Perseverance: Man cannot produce it for God and God does not need it for himself. Mans motive--self promotion. Preservation: God is doing this as we speak for all of his children, whether in a state of obedience or willful rebellion. God's motive--a Fathers love.
PREMKUMAR SAMUEL
Supporter
The Problem with using phrases like "Once Saved always Saved", "irresistible Grace," "Eternal Security,"etc. Is that you don't find them in the Bible and therefore it means one thing for one person, and another for another person. Similarly, the term Perseverance of Saints also has to be defined clearly. What Calvin meant and what Beaser propagated are two different concepts. We are saved by grace, no doubt, we are not saved by good works. However, the Bible makes it clear that we are saved for good works Christianity is all about doing the will of God. The New Testament Authors had a wonderful balance on the Subject; they spoke about how a person is secure in the hands of Jesus, and at the same time how a person can on his own volition can slip away. Unless we understand this, we are bound to be biased and tend to pick out what we like and not preach or practice the whole counsel of God.
RICK PORTER
Supporter
I would like to approach this question in another way. Let us look at what Jesus said to the criminal, who understood he was a sinner and believed Jesus was The Messiah King who had a kingdom, and asked to be remembered [.Luke 23:32-43 ] Jesus said, that the man would be with Him in Paradise that day. Simplily put, in Position, Spiritualy the man was already in Heaven, even though in Practice he was still in a physical existence on earth. So, likewise when we become born again [ John 3:3 ], we in Position are already in God's Kingdom or Heaven, but are still in Practice living every day in our physical bodies experiencing our daily walk for Christ. We make good decisions and sometimes fail and make bad decisions, this does not change our Position. We are thus preserved by Position not Practice. God's Grace saves and keeps us saved until we fully are completed, for God's Glory.
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