Does God still speak through dreams? (Genesis 37:5-7, 9)
Genesis 37:1 - 11
ESV - 1 Jacob lived in the land of his father's sojournings, in the land of Canaan. 2 These are the generations of Jacob. Joseph, being seventeen years old, was pasturing the flock with his brothers. He was a boy with the sons of Bilhah and Zilpah, his father's wives. And Joseph brought a bad report of them to their father.
Anonymous
For follow-up discussion and general commentary on the topic. Comments are sorted chronologically.
Danny Hickman
God said, "In the last days" he would pour out his Spirit on "all flesh." He said men and women would see visions and dream dreams. He said it through the prophet Joel 2:28. We are reminded of it by Luke in the book of Acts 2:17.
"In the last days." It makes some of us think he means 'When the world is getting ready to shutdown, come to an end.' Let me say this clearly: God is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. There is no beginning or end to what he does. There is a revelation and there’s a time when things are hidden.
When the scriptures say 'in the last days,' it simply means 'a time in the future,' or a time yet to come.' God hasn't provided us a way to determine how long we have left to exist in this dispensation.
"On all flesh." Does this mean every living person will have the Spirit of God living in them? Of course not! That scripture is saying that there will be no limit to who will be used by God to do his will and carry out his purpose. It means there will be no male or female limitations like there had been. There will be nodifference made between Hebrews and Gentiles or any other distinctions we like to trumpet.
To say with certainty YOU KNOW God no longer speaks to us through visions and dreams is very telling in my view. It means TO ME, that your communication line is probably crimped.
Just because we don't experience a thing doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
I listed 2 scriptures that say it happens. Can anyone list 1 that say it doesn't
Danny Hickman
These visions and dreams that God promised we would experience, are they a means of divinely speaking to us, or are they for entertainment purposes only?
I challenge the teacher who says 'God only speaks to us through his completed word' to point out one scripture that even hints at such a travesty! That would be quite a travesty if my loving Abba ever told me he would only communicate with me through writings he inspired men to write.
I think that view of the scriptures is an unhealthy and unproductive view. I use the scriptures as an aid to helping me understand the world and to trying to get a better understanding of God, hoping that as I study and try to immerse myself in the Word, the Lord will reveal himself to be in it with me.
I've been born again. FULL STOP! I could put the bible down, stop praying, no more holy communion, nothing, and ho to be with the Lord when my earthly life ends. I don't pray, study, worship, or do anything else to try to convince Jesus to save my soul. It' done!
I have a relationship with God through his Son Jesus with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives with me. I don't have to have a vision or a dream to remind me of his presence. But that's me!
If you don't need a vision or a dream, that's you! You dodon't get to say what another person might need to get to where you think you are!
Danny Hickman
Some of us say things like 'God only speaks to us in these days through his word.' Then with a closer look at the Word, we might be able to see something similar.
Some people can hear God's voice in all of its majesty and power and call it something normal.
When some Greeks came to hear Jesus preach (John 12), they approached Phillip, who went and got Andrew to go with him to tell Jesus they were there. Jesus was preaching that it was his time to be glorified. And he said, "Father, glorify your name."
Then a voice came from heaven: "I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again." The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, ""An angel has spoken to him." (John 12:28,29).
Thunder; an angel; ANYTHING! But no, not God, God doesn't answer like that, out loud, in front of a crowd of people!
They heard the Father answer his Son and it did them absolutely no good. If you read on they started asking the most ignorant questions: 'Who is this Son of Man you keep talking about?'
What's my point? NO ONE got it right. God's voice was only a loud noise to those who said it had thundered. At least it sounded like something produced in heaven to the ones who said it was angels speaking. But it's evident that they payed no real attention to what the voice said!
Which group do you belong to? The thunder group or the angel group? Or are you one of the disciples who we didn't hear from? We didn't hear how the disciples reacted...
Mark Vestal
Col 1:25
"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;"
God's Word is fulfilled. Are you implying He left something out? How could one possibly discern whether a 'voice', dream, or vision is from God or otherwise? What if so and so told you that God told them to tell you some 'new' unwritten information? How would you know that it is actually from God? You wouldn't be able to. God's written Word is the place to seek and find the truth today. This is why He told Paul to tell us that His Word would be perfect (completed) before the end of Paul's life and through Paul.
1 Cor 13:8-13
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."
We are not living in Israel's prophetic days. As you accurately addressed THIS 'dispensation', we are to "study" in order to 'hear' God (2 Tim 2:15).
Mark Vestal
Where in the Bible are WE TODAY 'promised to see visions and dreams from God'? Would this not be a form of requiring a sign...when we today are to walk by faith alone (2 Cor 5:7)?
Israel required signs, visions, miracles, and wonders for proof. Not only are we today to not require proof, we are not to seek it or expect it! It is having FAITH that pleases God.
1 Cor 1:22-23
"For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;"
2 Cor 11:3
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."
Danny Hickman
Where in the bible are WE TODAY told that God WON'T speak to anyone through visions and dreams? (it's a rhetorical question; we aren't told anything close to that)
But if it's needed, I'll list again where we're told 'In the last days young men and women would dream dreams and old men would see visions.' If you want to dismiss that as days gone by, that's up to you. I think that's just choosing to disbelieve something that you either haven't experienced yourself (a frequent error of teachers) or something you don't understand, which is also a usual occurrence.
I think the term 'the last days' is a picturesque way of saying 'in the future,' or in a time of God's choosing that is in the distant future.'
You seem to think we're living in a time where if we don't have a formal education we won't be able to hear from God without the help of some other person who can hear from God through bible study.
I come from people who survived horrible treatment by people who refused them to opportunity to learn to read. Are you trying to tell me and the rest of the world that since they couldn't read the scriptures they couldn't hear from God?
They did hear from him, and it was usually through visions and dreams.
There will never be a time when the only way to communicate with God will be through prayer and bible study.
I say all of this for the benefit of the people who have experienced communication with God through a vision or a dream: You know what you experienced!
Danny Hickman
Mark, the example I give of my ancestors not being able to read the scriptures for themselves is an extreme example that I don't think we can dismiss!
Please don't think I'm playing "the race card." I'M NOT! I believe some of the people who were the oppressors received heavenly messages from God the same as some of them did.
Do you know the scripture where Governor Pilate's wife told her husband she had a bad dream about Jesus, and she suggested that Pontius Pilate 'wash his hands' of the matter?
"Have nothing to do with that righteous man, for I have suffered much because of him today in a dream..." (Matt 27:19 ESV)
Was she only imagining things? I think Matthew would have written that she was if God didn't send dreams to warn and to encourage people.
If my ancestors didn't receive confirmation from God that their pleas for deliverance were heard I don't think they would have kept their faith. But there were people among them who God used to keep them believing that he would someday break their yoke of bondage.
There were many people among the captives (enslaved people) who dismissed "the dreamers."
Wait! I've read that dismissive comment somewhere before: 'they said to one another, "Here comes this dreamer." (Genesis 37:19 ESV)
Out of 12 sons only one was given dreams, and the others thought he was grandstanding! So this is very normal. For every person God gives a vision or a dream there is at least a whole city that thinks it's hokie. I say, 'typical.'
Mark Vestal
There's a difference between 'visions and dreams' and unseen guidance and spiritual strength from God. No level of education is required to be a recipient of God's power. It is indeed up to God to have mercy on whomever He pleases.
Discernment between fact and fiction IS however. There have been many cults and denominations that have risen out of deception. Paul has this very issue with even Peter and the 11 (Gal 2:11). With that said, I would like to address a few critical points:
God's 'chosen people' is the nation Israel. How God dealt with them as a nation and the promises that He gave THEM is different than how God currently deals with you and I INDIVIDUALLY today (Eph 3:2). Yes, God is the same today as He was then, but His dealings with mankind change often and are evident throughout the Bible.
The key change for us today is separation of the truths given from Jesus Christ to Peter and the 11 for Israel (while LIVING on earth), from the truths that were hidden in God until revealed only to Paul from Christ ascended in heaven for outsiders of God's covenant promises with Israel (Rom 16:25, 2 Tim 2:15).
When Israel rejected their Messiah, the changes and the significance of Christ's shed blood for ALL was then revealed to Paul (1 Tim 1:16, Eph 3:2, 1 Cor 4:16).
Yes, all scripture is profitable but study it with this fact in mind: Paul's gospel, our 'good news' (the hidden MYSTERY), began at the cross, which is where Israel's economy of PROPHECY was placed on hold.
Mark Vestal
Matt 10:5-6
"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Matt 15:24
"But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
John 4:22
"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews."
Acts 11:19
"Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only."
Christ clesrly appointed the twelve to herd Israel's 'lost sheep', but Paul's ministry to Gentiles was more like herding stray cats!
Gal 1:6-7
"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ."
Gal 2:14
"But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?"
Gal 3:1
"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?"
Gal 4:21
"Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?"
Danny Hickman
Everything you said is bible truth; but you were talking past me again. You assume that every person who has a dream that they believe to be the same phenomenon that Joseph, Jacob and Daniel experienced, a dream or vision from God, is being deceived. And your reasoning is that Israel enjoyed a special relationship with God that's not available to anyone else.
I'm glad I don't understand the scriptures like that! That's very similar to how Joseph's brothers felt about the relationship between Joseph and their father. It's not a healthy way to think.
God has never - it isn't in the record anywhere- that God has ever totally withheld himself from any people.
The Pharaoh of Egypt had a dream sent to him by God. He wasn't an Israelite. Why didn't God just give Joseph the dream? Because his plan was bigger in focus than just informing the Pharaoh of the future.
Nebuchadnezzar wasn't an Israelite, but God gave him a dream (Dan 2).
I don't know why I'm going all the way back to these characters; you completely ignored me reminding you of governor Pilate's wife and her dream. She wasn't an Israelite.
I don't understand your reasoning. And it is YOUR REASONING! If it isn't, list a scripture that HINTS that God 'no longer communicates with anyone through visions and dreams.' And please tell us when dreams and visions ceased...
Supplying a long list of disjointed truisms from the scriptures isn't helping me to come to the knowledge you're trying to give me.
Mark Vestal
Yes. There WERE some non-Hebrews that received messages from God prior to the completion of the Bible and prior to Paul. You talked past me also. My point was the timing, not the people. But Israel absolutely had a special relationship with God; their covenants, which are not ours. They both, old AND NEW, are for Israel (Heb 8:8). WE TODAY are under God's grace...FAR BETTER than a covenant!
It is why I constantly stress why there can be and are differences of how things are NOW, in THIS age of God's grace, compared to how things were then and how they will be when Christ returns and establishes His new covenant WITH ISRAEL.
Eph 3:1-6
"For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"
Verse 2 above says there's something new being revealed NOW, the "mystery", and it was given to and through Paul to tell Danny and Mark all about. It wasn't given to Moses, Zechariah, Isaiah, or even Peter. It was "hidden" until revealed only to Paul. (cont...)
Mark Vestal
To clarify my remark on 'deception'; I was eluding that someone who claims to have received a 'dream or vision' from God TODAY may use that to deceive others. It is why the complete (perfect) Word of God is to be our source of information and not just someone claiming to be a 'prophet'. That type of deception runs rampant today, as was stated it would. This brings me to the "hint" that you asked for.
Firstly, Paul was to "fulfill the Word of God", and his 13 epistles and ministry did just that:
Col 1:25
"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;"
Now, read the below 'hint' that prophetic things WILL END once all the "mysteries" have been revealed to Paul to fulfill God's Word:
1 Cor 13:8-10
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."
Is God's Word not perfect, Greek τέλειος (complete)?
1 Cor 13:12
"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
So when Paul finishes his ministry and fulfills the Word of God, we will then have ALL of the information that God says we need from Him for TODAY, correct?? The 'last days' visions and dreams go to ISRAEL!
Danny Hickman
Mark, I purposely talked past you; you have completely changed the point of the narrative.
There's no argument afloat that "people who lived / is alive now after the resurrection of the Christ" are in a new relationship with God. FULL STOP! The only people who were given the Law of Moses to keep were Abraham's descendants, his "stars of the heavens" offspring. It was for temporary relationship purposes only. If they want to go to the next level with God, they need to acknowledge that God sent his Son, the Messiah the prophets preached who would come and be a final sacrifice for the remission of sin.
How did that get mixed in with this question of whether God still speaks to people through visions and dreams?
(When I go coon hunting, I don't shoot at rabbits that I run across). No, I don't really hunt animals, that would require me to touch a gun. I think you get my drift.
I don't want to get further into the weeds about Israel's relationship with God when Jesus returns. That's another conversational detour.
Dreams and visions... I addressed your detour points; will you tell us where to find the scripture (just one will do) that tells us 'God no longer speaks to earth's inhabitants through visions and dreams?'
This thing some of you have about 'the Word (the bible) being completed and now it's the only way to hear from God,' is some of the worst teaching I've ever heard! That would make 1610 AD the cutoff, I suppose.
That ain't in the bible; that's made up!
Mark Vestal
Your argument is that I'm now changing the narrative when in actuality I gave you not only your required 'hint' in full context, I gave you specific and sound scripture. I'm only capable of showing it, brother. As you and I would agree, I am incapable of making anyone actually see it or believe it.
Mark Vestal
The purpose, Danny, was to show that Israel had the prophesy/prophetic program. We AS OUTSIDERS of God's covenants with Israel are under the "hidden mysteries" (not prophecy) that were revealed only to Paul. Dreams and visions fall into the "prophetic" realm. A mystery is something that was never prophesied. It was "hidden" until Paul. So the point was that we don't have dreams and visions from God today. It's that simple.
Danny Hickman
It is to be contextually challenged to apply ANY PART of 1 Corinthians 13 to an understanding about visions and dreams! The point of 1 Cor 13 is that "Love conquers everything" that everything else can only work for A SEASON.
"Everything God uses in his network is SEASONAL except his love for us."
That's the one-liner point of that bible chapter. It isn't to be used to make doctrine about prophecy or speaking in tongues. It teaches us of the POWER of, the accomplishments that can be had, the eternal blessedness of what Love can do, that no other TOOL can do.
It means that visions and dreams, speaking in tongues, miracles, prophecies, NOTHING will last the way Love does!
Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins (1 Pet 4:8). (That isn't said about any other policy or practice).
We're in the weeds and off the subject, but I think it's a worthy detour.
The workers who God used to compile the scriptures did him and us a great service; they gave us headings of the writings. We know before we begin reading what is the gist of the section we're about to read. If we ignore it we can apply meaning that isn't intended.
Higher learning is no match for preconceived ideas!
None of the scriptures you listed is intended to tell us we will never again experience dreams and visions, and that God is through talking.
So people deceive others by saying they've had a vision from God! That's typical!
Is that practice deceiving you? hmm...
Danny Hickman
You told me earlier in one of your posts that God deals with us "INDIVIDUALLY," and I agree. Now you're tending that he deals with us corporately. You're saying he no longer speaks to us "prophetically."
Was the dream governor Pilate's wife had "prophetic"? I wouldn't call it that.
And you STILL ignore the words of Joel that says "In the last days" God would use dreams and visions...
Thank you for taking the time to meet with me! Be blessed today brother!
Mark Vestal
God deals with members of the church, the body of Christ individually for salvation. God requires Israel as a nation to believe that Jesus Christ is their Messiah in order to receive their earthly kingdom of priests to the world.
The church, the body of Christ, will not be here for the 'last days'. This is why we aren't and will not receive dreams and visions from God. Israel however will once again when the church has been filled and Israel's prophetic program resumes.
The 'headings' in scripture were added by man after the Spirit inspired Word was actually written. So were the headings 'Old and New Testament'. You can't have a new testament without the death of the testator, so the 'new' testament should actually not begin until the death of Jesus Christ (Heb 9:16).
To say that anything in scripture outside of man's headings is less relevant and out of context is a bit of a stretch. We would have to discount most of what Paul wrote. The man is all over the place sometimes! Lol.
Yes, we have strayed into the weeds, but thank you also for always giving good conversation! It's all for Him as I believe we both agree. Peace brother!