Who are those that God brings with Him, who have fallen asleep in Jesus, as referred to in 1 Thess. 4:14?
In 1 Corinthians 15:50-57 we understand this perishable body will be raised and take on it's eternal form. In death, I have always presumed that my spirit and soul parted my body and were given or housed in the resurrected body or regenerated body given for our habitation in Heaven with the Lord. In 2 Corinthians 5:1,8, we are assured that this mortal body will be changed into an incorruptible housing. Moses and Elijah appeared with the Lord on the mount of transfiguration, presumably in their resurrected bodies received when rescued from Paradise when Jesus led captivity captive and took them to Heaven, having purchased their right to now enter Heaven and God's presence by having placed his sinless blood on the Heavenly mercy seat for the remission of sins forever. (Hebrews 9:22-26) (remember God showed Moses the actual artifacts in Heaven which He wanted him to duplicated for use on the earth by the Israelites Ex. 25:40 / Hebrews 8:4-5). Jesus appeared to His disciples in His resurrected body. If our spirit and soul are indeed already housed in an incorruptible body in Heaven after we die, why would Jesus then bring the dead back with Him to re-inhabit their now resurrecting dead bodies from the graves when He comes for the rapture? Only to be re-transformed again??? It just doesn't make sense to me somehow. I believe fully in eternal life after death for those who have accepted Christ as savior. But, what is this yo-yo effect with the bodies of the dead saints??? I don't quite understand it.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 17
ESV - 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
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Asked August 17 2014
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Craig Stephenson
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For follow-up discussion and general commentary on the topic. Comments are sorted chronologically.
Gloria Clayton
I still don't understand, does this mean that HE will bring everyone? Who has fallen asleep?
Mary Ann Carrasquillo
concerning the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the person that answered said that those who die in Christ are asleep and know nothing until they are raised in The Second Coming, however I have on verse that basically claims that this is not the case, that the dead in Christ know nothing. The thief on the cross by Jesus, was told that "...today you will be with me in Paradise." Luke 23:43. If it is the fate of all those who died in Christ to know nothing until the bodily resurrection, then why did Jesus tell the thief who acknowledge Him that he would be with Him in Paradise? The original scripture that was used in this discussion was 1Thessalonians 4:13-17. There also seems to be some support or question concerning this in Revelation 6:9-11, where the SOULS of all those who had been slain for the Word of God and for the testimony which they held, they were told to rest a little longer til their number was completed. By this it is assumed that their souls are with Christ but not yet their resurrected bodies, and again, some concern about Revelation 20:4-6 which seems to indicate that its the saints that were beheaded during the great tribulation that will live and reign with Christ 1000 years. Now this may no indicate that the dead in Christ have not been resurrected, but it is interesting that the promise of reigning with Christ was a promise given to the Laodicean Church or period who will face the Great Tribulation and either be purified or be apostate.
Jennifer Rothnie
Hi Mary Anne, that is a common mis-interpretation of Luke 23:43. Commas and other punctuation was not in the original Greek, and in the case of Luke 23:43 the punctuation literally doesn't matter. Jesus isn't saying "This day I tell you" or "You will be with me today" but that TODAY has come. "Today" was a rabbinical concept in reference to entering God's rest.
"Since, then, it remains for some to enter His rest, and since those who formerly heard the good news did not enter because of their disobedience, God again designated a certain day as “TODAY,” when a long time later He spoke through David as was just stated: “TODAY, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.” For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day." Heb 6:6-8
We enter God's rest when we first believe (as the thief did) and enter His final rest at the Ressurection (not upon physical death.) You can read more about the Jewish concept of TODAY here:
Question: What did Jesus mean when He said, 'Today you will be with me in paradise'?
See Answer: http://ebible.com/answers/19855?ori=167400
But another reason we know it cannot mean "Today we are going to literally be together in Paradise" is that scripture is clear on where Paradise is - and it is in heaven, not in Sheol/Hades. ( II Cor 12:3-4, Rev 2:7) But Jesus did not ascend to Heaven to His father until post-Resurrection (Jn 20:17, I Pet 3:21-22) but rather descended (I Pet 3:18-22.)
Jennifer Rothnie
The vision of the souls under the throne is a bit trickier. It's important to remember that the vision of the martyrs under the throne is part of a figurative vision which John is seeing. So while it could be that somehow martyrs are literally given a special place under an altar in heaven, it is more likely a figurative reference to their blood being poured out on the altar of sacrifice, and how their shed blood will be avenged by God, but how that vengeance is not immediate. (Such as Abel's blood 'cried out' in Gen 4:10) [The general thrust of Revelation being that the Lord's Day of judgement will be "soon" but not right now.]
And these souls are specifically martyrs who died for their testimony in Christ - not every Christian who ever died. This is especially important in light of Rev 20:4-6. Those beheaded during the tribulation "came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." This is "the first Resurrection." But "The rest of the dead" - all other believers who were not martyred in the tribulation and all other unbelievers, do not come to life until "after" 1,000 years. We see them judged in Rev 20:11-15 to either life or the lake of fire. While that's some dizzying stuff to consider when studying eschatology (the thousand years literal or symbolic? Did the tribulation happen in the past or is it in the future? Etc.) its hard to extrapolate trib martyrs being brought back to life as proving a conscious state between death & Resurrection for everyone.