For follow-up discussion and general commentary on the topic. Comments are sorted chronologically.
James Sanders
If there is predestination by God and only the elect will be saved, Does that nullify free will? It is my understanding that God wants all to be saved and not the ones he "chooses." Can He really choose Henry and not Harold? Where is the free will if that is true?
It is my understanding that anyone can choose to accept or reject our Lord which indicates free will; to me anyway.
James Kraft
The reason that those that say 'Lord, Lord' could not enter in is because they thought they had saved themselves by obedience instead of trusting in what Jesus did on the cross for them. Many believe they can make themselves good enough to go to heaven. They even do good works or so they think. But, good works will not save us. Only faith in what Jesus did on the cross plus nothing else is the only way to heaven.
Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life. When we put our trust in Him for our salvation He gives us His perfect righteousness so that we do not have to depend on our own righteousness for salvation.
By grace you are saved, through faith, not of works lest any man should boast. Jesus said by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
It is only by believing the Jesus work on the cross paid our sin debt in full. No sin, past, present, or future can keep us from the love of god.
If you have put your faith in Jesus alone you are one of the elect.
Norine Williams
You are chosen by Jesus according to Scripture (John 15:16)!
James Kraft
Those who believe are chosen. Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the POWER of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVETH, to the Jew first, an also to the Greek. John 12:32. God calls all to believe the gospel and be saved. First Corinthians 15:3-4. Those that believe it are saved. John 6:47. God cannot lie. First John 2:2. John 3:16.
First Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish, foolishness, but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.
For after that, by the wisdom of God, it pleased God to save them that believe.
John 3:18 Believers are no longer condemned to hell, but unbelievers are condemned already because they did not believe on the name of the Son of God.
John 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent me, that ALL that seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life, and I will raise Him up on the last day.
No one is saved until they trust Jesus as the only way of salvation plus nothing. Romans 4:5-8. Romans 3:26-28. The gift of God is eternal life, not faith. Romans 6:23. Romans 11:6 All grace, no works.
First John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that BELIEVE on the name of the Son of God, that ye may KNOW YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. We have it now.
Mark Vestal
Ezekiel/Jennifer, there can be no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood (Heb 9:22). Who's shed blood was the sufficient payment for the world's sins? Did Jesus Christ shed His blood for that payment before or after you believed? Your belief is not the point in time that God forgave you. Your belief (faith in the blood He shed for you nearly 2,000 years ago) is the ONLY way to receive His gift of salvation.
Rom 3:24-26
"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."
Rom 5:6-9
"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."
1 Tim 2:5-6
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."
Forgiveness and salvation are two events that occurred at different times.
Mark Vestal
If Jesus Christ is your savior then it is not possible for your eternal state to be the result of how well you lived your life. It is by you placing your faith in Christ's life for you that pleases God today (Heb 11:6).
Jesus Christ lived the perfect life that we cannot...for us.
He died for the forgiveness of our sins, was buried, but defeated both sin and death...for our justification.
Upon having placed our faith in Him, His life, His death, burial, and resurrection...for us (1 Cor 15:1-4), we are then made the righteousness of God Himself (2 Cor 5:21).
We are complete in Him and eternally secure upon having faith in Him (Col 2:10, Eph 4:30).
We are joint heirs with Him and gifted all spiritual blessings in heavenly places (Rom 8:17, Eph 1:3).
There is nothing further required on our part to finish what Christ already completed for us. We should now live a more righteous life for Him as a result of our salvation by removing sin from our lives (Rom 12:1), but how well we perform this has ZERO bearing on our eternal security in Him (Rom 7:14-25).
Rom 5:20
"Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:"
1 Cor 6:12
"All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any."
Rom 6:14-15
"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."
Jennifer Rothnie
"Ezekiel/Jennifer, there can be no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood (Heb 9:22). Who's shed blood was the sufficient payment for the world's sins? Did Jesus Christ shed His blood for that payment before or after you believed?"
He shed His blood prior. But it's only when a believer is *immersed* in the death of Christ that the believer is counted as dying for their sins (in Christ's own death) and freed from the penalty of the law. And it's only when the believer is united in Christ's death and raised again as child of God that the believer is made part of God's people, and the offering of the atoning sacrifice now applies to him/her.
Consider the models of atonement which scripture presents, rather than forcing in strange ideas like a payment made in advance.
Passover lamb: One needed the unblemished lamb; the preparation of the lamb; the death of the lamb; the collected blood of the lamb; to apply the blood to the doorposts in faith; and to remain in the household.
The Passover lamb's death certainly was sufficient for the whole household. But no one was actually "passed over" by the Angel of Death who was not inside a house with applied blood on the door. God didn't apply the blood for them.
Yearly atonement: You needed the unblemished sacrifice; the death of the sacrifice; the shed blood, the High Priest; the High Priest offering the blood in the Holy of Holies; and to be part of God's people. The death of the animal alone by itself "paid" for no one.
Mark Vestal
Jennifer, God is not currently reconciling the world. God "was in Christ reconciling the world" (past tense) at the cross. Our debts were paid that day. Our debts are NOT paid by anything we do. It is done. We believe this unto salvation.
Yes, we are reconciled to Him upon having faith in His blood, the payment for our sins...that were forgiven at the moment His blood was shed...for that forgiveness. Our belief does not get our sins forgiven. Our repentance does not get our sins forgiven. Our water baptism, walking the aisle, confessing our sins, asking for our sins to be forgiven...does not get our sins forgiven. Our sins were forgiven at the cross through Christ's shed blood...shed for "the forgiveness of sins".
Otherwise, we do not believe that "Christ died for our sins", which is the requirement for salvation.
Jennifer Rothnie
As for your verses and passages, they contradict your claims that we are forgiven and reconciled *prior* to believing in Christ.
Rom 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood"
THROUGH faith in His blood. No one is propitiated for (that is, forgiven and atoned for) prior to believing in Him and His spotless blood!
"to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God"
"Sins that are passed" due to God's "forbearance" doesn't mean "sins already forgiven prior to faith." God forbeared (and continues to forbear) immediate judgement of past sins/sins previously committed to give us all time to repent, as the remission of sins is only given in Christ to those who believe.
Note that EVERY sentence from verse 21 to the end of the chapter emphasizes faith. Righteousness by faith to those who believe. Propitiated (Atoned for) by Christ's blood through faith. Justified by faith.
""For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly." Rom 5:6
Indeed, Christ died for everyone! No one is excluded from the draw of Christ (John 12:32.) This is no way means every benefit of Christ's death is effectually applied to everyone prior to faith. Only once we believe does God immerse us into Christ and raise us in His life (Rom 6;) give us every spiritual blessing (Eph 1;) make us His children (John 1:12-13) and people (I Pet 2:9-10) so the benefits of the sacrifice apply, etc.
Jennifer Rothnie
The sacrifice was made once and for all when Jesus died, just as the offering of that sacrifice was made once and for all when Jesus offered it in the heavenly temple.
But no, we *personally* are not forgiven until we believe. That sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient and perpetual, and covers any believer who is made part of God's people.
We are only forgiven once we are IN Christ. Our faith is in Christ (which includes faith that He is the perfect sacrifice, the only way of salvation, etc.) When immersed in His death (Rom 6) we gain unity into His death: freedom from slavery to sin; the law thinks we are dead; we are covered by the blood; we are reconciled to God; etc. When God raises us in Christ's resurrected life, we gain the benefits of that: made heirs; given every spiritual blessing in Christ; justified (not merely forgiven); given future inheritance; sealed by the Spirit; made part of God's people; made God's children; etc.
No one must believe that "your sins are ALREADY" forgiven to be saved. Unbelievers stand condemned for their sins - they are not yet forgiven even if God forbears from smiting them immediately. The good news we share is not that they need to believe they've been forgiven. It is that the Kingdom of God has come in Christ and Christ has provided the way of salvation. They will be reconciled to God, justified, forgiven, and given every other blessing of salvation - including the future Resurrection - if they will but believe in the Lord Jesus Christ!
Mark Vestal
Forgiven at the cross (God reconciled us unto Himself). We believe this (and are then reconciled to Him). You keep using forgiveness and reconciliation as being one in the same. Consider a couple that has an issue and is separated. One of the parties decided to forgive the other party. Doesn't the other party have to respond in order for the couple to be reconciled together?
We must believe to complete that circle. God did His part by removing the sin barrier that separates Him and us. We believe that He did this for us and are then gifted all of the things that you mention (death with Him, resurrection with Him, new life in Him, etc...) We're so close!! ...but so far off.
Jennifer Rothnie
Forgiveness and reconciliation are slightly different concepts, but with cross-over.
If one is speaking of the debt of finances or goods, to be forgiven is to have a debt cleared (rather than having to pay it off or have someone else pay it for you.) Reconciliation is having one's debt set to zero. So, if Sally owes Jane $20 and Jane forgives her $10, then she's partially forgiven but not reconciled yet to zero.
If one of speaking of relationships, forgiveness would be not asking for recompence or judgement on a particular wrong done or even all wrongs done. Reconciliation would follow, as reconciliation is when the relationship is set back to "peace" rather than "enmity." If nation B sets a condition, such as it will forgive A if it pledges loyalty to B, then there may be a conditional forgiveness which leads to reconciliation.
In our case, when we were unbelieving Gentiles, we were at enmity with God, pursuing our own lusts. (Eph 2) Thankfully, God sent Christ, that *through Him* we might be brought near.
You are right that the *barrier* (which is the wall of separation) has been removed. This symbolism in Ephesians pulls from the temple imagery, where a barrier wall in the court of the Gentiles showed the point they could not cross under pain of death. This barrier was removed in Christ, so even Gentiles can turn in faith to Christ and have access to God.
"By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand..." Rom 5:12
Jennifer Rothnie
"Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now IN Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace and reconciling both of them to God in one body through the cross, by which He extinguished their hostility.
He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. *For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. Therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone" Eph 2:11-20
After we believe, God unites us in the death of Christ (Rom 6.) Thus, in Christ's own blood we are reconciled to God in one body along with Jewish believers. We become fellow citizens with other believers, all built on Christ.
Mark Vestal
Jennifer, I would add that salvation requires a 'positive' account balance, which is obtained by faith. The world's 'balance' was set to zero at the cross. We believe, and then go in the positive. However, If we "work" for that positive balance we actually go negative, which also illustrates how forgiveness came before belief and salvation.
Rom 4:4-5
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
"...him that worketh not" is sitting at a forgiven account balance of zero, but when he believes, his account is deposited with righteousness. Amen?!