For follow-up discussion and general commentary on the topic. Comments are sorted chronologically.
T. OBrien
Great answer by S. Michael Houdmann. I'd like to hear more. We've had this discussion in a Bible study several times. We've talked about the many predestination/elect verses that you listed. We then went on to discuss John 6:44 (about the Father drawing people to Jesus/salvation). but ....... Then our discussion get messy when someone brings up the question "Why then are we called to evangelize?" . Can you modify your answer to address that question ? Thanks.
John Welch
My take is a unique view: the people saved by freewill are 'predestinated to good works' & He who started a good work in you will finish it. Praise GOD!
Nathan Toronga
T. Obrien, your answer is neatly stacked within the pages of the bible. See Acts 13:48 "When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honoured the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed".
Notice that they all rejoiced and honoured the word of the Lord, but only the appointed, the chosen ones, believed.
The bible contains no contradictions.
Bless.
yonas berhane
Dear believers I am a converted Christian, and I believe in predestination.Whenever I hear about these conversations, I really get confused. Let me put it this way: We know that God knows the future 100%. If so, let me give you an example. If I give someone a flight ticket and if I know he will not use it 100%, then what is the necessity of giving him the ticket? And if he did not use the ticket is he guilty? Dear brothers and sisters I am in need of you to clarify my doubts. God bless you.
Jennifer Rothnie
Your ticket analogy is interesting, but that is not really what predestination is talking about in scripture. To use the airplane analogy, God's predestination would be:
- The processes by which people may reach their destination (walking, ticket/plane)
- The process in which people, unable to reach the destination of their own power or afford a ticket, could obtain a ticket (free ticket for the taking)
- The course and destination of the airplane
- The limits and laws governing the people and the airplane itself
While the analogy here is not perfect, you can see that pre-destination (setting the laws, limits, and boundaries before hand) is about God determining and setting rules, pathways, boundaries, limits, laws, judgements, etc, before time.
As for tickets, we are to spread Christ's offer to all (evangelism) as Christ died for all (I John 2:2, I Tim 4:10). And yes, those who refuse a ticket (reject Christ) would have no way of reaching the destination (eternal life). John 3:16-18
https://ebible.com/questions/265-what-is-predestination-is-predestination-biblical#answer-15328
https://ebible.com/questions/12111-what-is-predestined-referring-to-in-ephesians-1#answer-19101
https://ebible.com/questions/3317-how-does-god-s-sovereignty-work-together-with-free-will#answer-17091
https://ebible.com/questions/3273-how-are-predestination-and-election-connected-with-foreknowledge#answer-16960
https://ebible.com/questions/3181-is-god-sovereign-or-do-we-have-a-free-will#answer-14667
Paul Gerardi
Houdmann, and so many others, has confused the doctrine of election (God's choosing) and predestination (God's determined outcome).
All mentions of predestination are related to those who are already saved.
The saved, are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son - that is the determined outcome for all who are saved (i.e. whom God foreknew)
The saved, are predestined to adoption as sons - that is the determined outcome for all who are saved
Election - how God chooses who will be saved - is a completely separate doctrine than the doctrine of predestination. The predestined outcome/future is for all the saved.
Arthur Carpenter
I was raised Presbyterian and was one of the "frozen, chosen" for more than 60 years. Late in life, I moved to Methodism, mainly because of proximity, but also to be with friends. To me, the difference in doctrine and practice is insignificant and immaterial. It all comes down to the first two commandments. (By the way, I am now 86.)
The way I look at it is that God does no evil and does not preordain it. Start with Adam and Eve. They were placed on earth, basically in what could be called a heaven. God did not want a bunch of robots, however, and gave them the ability to reason and make their own decisions (free will). He wanted us to follow him of our own choice, willingly, because we could see that it was right. We ARE his children and He wants nothing but the best for us. Sometimes children go astray, but can always be redeemed. He does NOT predestine us for evil.
Therefore, he predestined each and every one of us to be a loyal and loving member of His family, doing good. Given free will, and tempted by Satan, we have strayed. We all have sinned. But, as long as we have breath, we can recognize our errors, earnestly repent, be forgiven and return to the fold. This requires commitment, not just "lip service."
As has been said before, the choice is ours...."Life...or death".
Troy Davidson
People have an amazing way of complicating the issue of predestination, but they shouldn't.
1. God is omniscient. He knows everything, that has happened, that is happening, that will happen, or that MIGHT have happened, past present, or future. As such, He know how every person ever created will respond to any question, situation, or circumstance. No matter what freewill choice any individual might make, God is NEVER surprised by it.
2. Before ANYTHING was ever created, God looked at all possibilities for every person that He ever planned to create, looking at every conceivable scenario to see if that person would ever, under any circumstance, accept Christ as his Savior. This is the foreknowledge of God.
3. Some people, He could see, would never, under ANY circumstance, make the freewill choice to accept Christ. Others, given the right opportunities and circumstances, would make that choice.
4. Those who could be brought to a freewill choice of saving faith God elected to save. Those could would reject Christ no matter what were elected to not be saved. This is the process of Election. God sovereignly elects those that HE chooses to be saved, based on His Foreknowledge.
5. Those who God elects, He then predestines to salvation by arranging their situations and circumstances to bring each of them to the point of saving faith, just as He foresaw that they would.
Kelechi Ikpo
To add to Nathan's answer why Christians are still called to evangelize despite predestination, T. OBrien Romans 10:14-15 which read as thus;
14 How then will they call on HIM in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in HIM of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, 'how beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!'
The above passage gives more clarification on why Christians are still called to evangelize.